In another of my columns, the discussion arose as to whether or not God is in control of this world. I am adamant in saying that He is, even though God has given free will to all humans and we choose for ourselves how we will live our lives. But the ultimate control is God’s alone. Any dominion or authority we as human beings have is only at His discretion and allowance.
I commented at one point that scripture says that God “sets up whom He will, and brings down whom He will.” I wasn’t sure of the exact location of the scripture and promised to get back with it. There are several pertinent scriptures:
Psalm 75:7 “But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.”
Daniel 4:35 “And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”
Daniel 2:21 “And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:…”
In my mind, I puzzle:
Did God set up Hitler, who was a monster and murdered millions of Jews?
Did God set up President Bill Clinton who brought extreme shame to the Oval Office?
Did God set up President George W. Bush?
Has God always had His will in elections and in the progression of kings?
or…are we humans indeed “setting up and bringing down”, albeit under the authority and permission of God?
I’m interested in hearing your thoughts about this.
Shirley Buxton 
64 replies on “Does God Set Up World Leaders–Both Good and Evil?”
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
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Gods puts in the good people. But God lets the people to vote in evil people to show the nations how far we have gotten away from him. We Christians prayed to God for Trump and he listened. Obama was put in by the people to show what evil can do to America.
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in this very critical time of campaigning for the upcoming presidential election I have been fervently attempting to correct and educate people about this spiritual truth; that God sets the leaders of nations in their positions. I am amazed about how many ‘Christians’ that have told me it isn’t true!!! I believe effectual prayers avail much, so when people ask me if I’m going to vote I tell them I will pray my votes into heaven many many times. trying to keep my eyes where they should be focused and attributing the ultimate power and authority to the correct source no matter what ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO THINK BELIEVE OR CLAIM !!! AMEN THANK-YOU JESUS
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gg
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Rendering out…
Isa_30:28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
Amo_9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Luk_22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Joel 2:1…..
2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
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My belief is definite that God does set up leaders and puts down leaders. No, I have no idea how He chooses but it seems clear prophets declared beforehand kings demise. As one prophet said to a king ” you are an instrument of judgement against wayward Israel. I personally believe our present leader could be such a person toward wayward America. It seems almost impossible that by human hands such a fraud and deception could happen especially with today’s political process and nomination procedure. The question is will we keep our eyes on the present deception, fraud and shame or focus on what we should and turn from our evil ways? Will America try and solve our dilemma with our arms of flesh or look to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
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Most of the references in this topic are from the old testament. We are living under the new testament. Where God now does His work through the Church, which is us. Do we not know that we will judge the world, do we not know that we will judge angels? The Lord now works his will through his saints.
He has given us ALL power over ALL the power of the devil, and yet this world is still under the control of the wicked one. There seems to be a problem here. There are some things we must know as Christians. Number one is God does not know everything! I am sure that is a surprise to most believers today. There are things God chooses not to know. Did you know that? Yes, God in the past God has raised up certain individuals and placed them in offices that have authority connected to them. Then we have man who also has raised up certain individuals, and placed them in places of authority. One ordained by God and the other ordained by man. (Hosea 8:4) It is the same today. We have God’s anointed, and then we have those who are also anointed by the prince of darkness. When the Lord sees evil he turns from it, and then cuts off the memory of them from the earth! In other words he forgets who these people are, and then he wipes who these people are from his memory!
Psa 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psa 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Jesus spoke of such a day…
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
We have a picture here of a all knowing God not knowing someone!!! The Lords eyes are only on the righteous, and his ears are open to there prayers! Not everyone in authority today was placed there by God! We are to judge this world using the wisdom given unto by the Lord. We are told to test the spirits to see if they are of God, if they not, then we are to pray for those in authority to get them out of the position in which man has placed them…not God! We have that authority and power to do so. I guess Jesus did not get the memo, when came down hard upon the religious leaders of his time who were in places of authority. He did not resist there position, but the individual holding that position that was not placed there by God. Even John the Baptist had a similar problem. Someone forgot to tell him he was resisting God when brought the hammer down upon Herod, who was living with his brothers wife! He did not resist his position as governor, but Herod himself. Can you think of some one in authority today who does not have the wisdom of God to rule in the position they are in? Then pray for them to get them out. Bind the powers, and the of rulers of darkness operating in there lives!! We the Church are responsible for whats happening today. The earth belongs to us, not the devil, we are Christ’s and heirs according to the promise given unto Abraham by God, the earth is ours!!
Curtis
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I’m sorry, but your use of Scripture is very loose and wild. For instance, do you really think That when God says He doesn’t “know” these people, that He was missing any intellectual knowledge of them? Clearly God knew everything about these false believers. He didn’t know them in a deep way.
There are other this you are plays fast and loose with. Are you a charismatic?
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We must remember that the Lord God instituted the authorities that exist today. Governments have offices, and each office has an authority that goes along with it. God set these up to control evil, and to punish evil doers. It was not men that God set up, but offices. Authority is in the office not the individual who is installed in that position. We are told in the New Testament to “test everything”, “believe not every spirit, but test the spirits weather they are of God”. (1 Th 5, 21, 1 John 4:1)
Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
We are also told to pray for those in authority (Rom 13:1) We need to pray intelligently, with wisdom from God. If we find someone in authority who has failed the test, (“test the spirits weather they are of God”) then they do not have the authority of God working through them! Now we can pray according to knowledge. We would pray in Jesus name to bind the spirit of the power of the air that is working in them, we pray to God to remove this person from this position, and install some one who has Godly wisdom to make right decisions, so we can we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (1 Tim 2:2)
We are not resisting the authority that has been set by God (which is only an office, not a person) but an individual who is not Godly.
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yes God does set up rulers to take nations down he set up obum to take America down
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Often scripture intends *ability* rather than *action*. God has the ability but that does not mean he always sets up leaders. Why should we be so careless with that scripture when we are so careful with others? Jesus said he would draw ALL men unto him, but that does not mean all men are saved, we have to take that into context with all other scriptures to understand the real meaning.
Likewise taking scripture that tells us God establishes kings and rulers and removes them when taken into context with other scripture allows us to realize that scripture implies ability rather than all inclusive action. For example:
Hosea 8:4 THEY have set up kings, but NOT by Me; THEY have appointed princes, but I did NOT know it.
With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves, That they might be cut off.
We make the choice, if we do so seeking God’s favor we make good choices, if we do so without regard for God then we make bad choices and suffer the consequences.
Hosea 13:9-11 It is to your destruction Israel, that you are against ME, against your help. Where now is your king that the he may save all your cities, and your judges that YOU requested and said, *give me a king and princes*? I gave you a king in my anger and I took him away in my wrath.
God gives or allows man to choose even wrong and bad choices when they are disobedient to him. If we are obedient to God then God will choose what is best for us rather than allowing us OUR CHOICE. Ultimately WE CHOOSE.
Frankie, thank you so much for this very thoughtful and informative post. I appreciate so much your taking the time to read here and to leave this expedient post.
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Did God give us Hitler? Possibly yes. Not a popular answer. Death doesn’t mean a lot to God. It is the doorway to His House. We all die. However as far as Hitler is concerned, if Hitler wasn’t a leader, and then quite possible there would be no holocaust, then there more than likely there would have been no sympathy from the UN to grant Israel a sovereign State, thus an unfulfilled prophesy. It’s hard to say he put’s in all leaders for us all the time. I have great reservations that he would give us Obama. God grants us our own free will to live as we please to see if we follow Him and His ways. I see Satan in there pushing his own agenda to get us to the Tribulation.
I appreciate so much your being here and commenting. God help us all to be ready for His coming.
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If the Bible says in Rom 13:1 that those that exist in authority are instituted by God then its good enough for me. Either this part of the Bible is true or the entire Bible is a lie, I for one choose to believe
its true. It is Satan ruling this world and by his influence all evil abounds from men & women. We all have a choice to choose good or evil. Do you not know that Satan is fighting for your soul to do his work, he knows his days are numbered before he gets
his (word deleted by blog owner) kicked back to where he belongs
Thank you for your comment.I agree with you: God’s word is true. We must place our confidence in God . . . and resist the attack of satan. Blessings to you……
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[…] 2006, in a short blog post I raised the question as to whether or not God sets up our leaders. I had forgotten about the […]
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It is written:
The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Proverbs 21:1
“And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them….And he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ”” Exodus 7:1- 5, 13
“While the word was still in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses….And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Daniel 4:31-32, 34,35
“Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying, To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me. And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.” I Samuel 9: 15-17
“And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king.” 1 Samuel 10:24
“Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel:…” 1 Samuel 15:1
“Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.” 1 Samuel 15:10-11
“For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.” Revelations 17:17
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Thank you marcia and Rachel….very well said! We all must put aside things we do not understand and not take the burden of it. God wants us to rest in Him alone. We all have unanswered questions that will get answered some day. Until then walk in peace love and rest in our wonderful savior Jesus! He loves everyone and every soul has infinite value to Him!
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ATHEISTS & CALVINISTS
“GOD DOES NOT SET UP EVIL LEADERS” HOSEA 8:4
Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not:
Why would God set up Obama who’s against Israel? Who’s for the murder or little babies? The Bible calls that the Blood of the Innocents.
Who deceived the public, before the election by saying he was against Gay Marriage, but now he’s openly for it?
No, our Great, Sovereign and Almighty God, Jesus Christ does not set up wicked leaders, such as Obama has proven himself to be.
That would be the god of Calvinism who tells you to sin, then turns & tells you to repent.
God grants us freewill & as a result of that, mankind is to blame for the evil that goes on in this world. Not God.
It’s blasphemy to accuse God of decreeing both Good & Evil.
John Wesley Charges that Calvinism Makes God Out to Be Worse than the Devil
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Rachael, please read Romans 9:14-24 to discover God’s Truth that He created all mankind but yet He created SOME to be Vessels of God’s “MERCY FOR HONOR” and He also created SOME to be Vessels of God’s “Wrath and Dishonor”. (Example: King Agrippa)
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Thanks for this blog. For some time now I have referred “complainers” to the Bible to see what it says about leaders and authority. For some reason people say they are following God, but constantly attack and complain about our leaders. It seems that many of these people don’t think God knows what he is doing. Maybe if “They” were working harder to build the kingdom, they wouldn’t be chaising people away with their constant complaining.
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It’s good idea,may d lord help u.
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I believe OUR Creator Has Good reson To set up for the Finel Days to come to Past. All things work out for and to the Glory of GOD. Jesus and His Return Is Appointed,, in time.. Your not Going to out do GOD the Father you See GOD alone already knows the day and hour , its Appointed and What Takes place here on earth Is in a way our doing But our Creator Has it to the second in time So who is in office ,will do as needed.. Remember Jesus said even to JUDES GO and DO what you MUST,do .Jesus KING of KINGs is returng Very Very soon Watch . Listen Hear the Day will be very Loud . Im just a Shepperd of Him who. From Gods word is Sharing with you HE uis At the Door. Let Him in.
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You asked, “Did God set up Hitler, who was a monster and murdered millions of Jews?”
The answer is yes. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28. “But if shall come to pass if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God to observe carefully all His commandments and His statues which I command you today that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.” V15
“And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb and a byword among all nations where the Lord will lead you.” V37
“You shall beget sons and daughters but they shall not be yours for they shall go into captivity.” V41
“The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand.” V49 Interestingly the eagle has been the symbol of many of Israel’s enemies including Rome and Germany.
“Then the Lord will scatter you among all people, from one end of the earth to the other…” V65a
“Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night and have no assurance of life.” V66
“…because of the fear which terrifies your heart and the sight which your eyes see.” V67b
While this applies to various dispersions due to Israel’s disobedience, since the rejection of Christ as messiah the Jews have unfortunately and tragically been under this curse. As Jesus wept, “Oh Jerusalem the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate: for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” Mat 23:37-39
There is a time of blessing ahead for the Jews, but first there will be the Antichrist; and God will allow him to rule the world — indeed he is part of God’s master plan to crush evil and establish His kingdom on earth. But never forget that it was/is disobedience and the rejection of Christ that brought all this on the Jews and will bring all this upon the world.
Respectfully yours, Sis
Thank you for visiting my site, and for your extensive comments. Hope you return often. God bless you.
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You are spot on with your comment… God does punish evil with evil… Why does our Creator bother to allow for Satan, and a third of those who fell with the devil to live… The LORD GOD could destroy them at any time… Remember when Jesus was casting out demons during HIS time in the flesh upon this earth that one of the unclean spirits declared, “Have you come to destroy us before the time.”.. Interesting, and very revealing statement by the spiritual realm that represents darkness…
God knows the end from the beginning, and what has come upon the earth has been the direct result of sinful behavior on the part of mankind… Jesus came to undo what sin has done by dying for sins, and being the firstborn among many brethren… What is transpiring at this time is a testing of those God has called out of this world, and into HIS GLORIOUS LIGHT, and a lesson that humanity will not soon forget…
The establishment of HIS KINGDOM is a certainty, and so necessary for mankind’s survival as Matthew chapter 24 points out… Were it not for HIS return, no flesh would be saved alive..
Our Creator is in full control of the situation, and HIS will ultimately is going to be done… we have to trust in what HIS WORD declares, and strive to live our lives in accordance to HIS WILL…
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This is conditional and consequential if you do not obey:
Deuteronomy 28:15. “But if shall come to pass if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God to observe carefully all His commandments and His statues which I command you today that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.”
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I found your blog on Google. It is a very interesting issue with me. I have friends who cannot stand the current administration and believe our President is the personification of evil itself. Yet they make claims of believing the Bible and think that somehow that God is not involved in this.
I can respect the opinion of an agnostic who does not believe God is involved in the affairs of man. I can even respect those of an atheist. But I do find a great deal of hypocrisy when those who hold on to the belief that the Bible is literally the Word of God, yet they believe somehow that what it clearly states really does not mean what it says since it does not agree with them.
Was fun reading your comments.
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Nichg by: Elie Wiesel
One of the passages I just finished says:
“…Why would I bless His name? Every fiber in my body rebelled. Because HE caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because He kept 6 crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath adn the HOly Days? Because His great might, He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Burna, and so many other factories of death? How could I say to him: Blessed be Thou, Almighty, Master of the Universe, who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night, to watch as our fathers, our mothers, our brothers end up in the furnaces? Praised by Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine alter?”
it goes on to say:
“And I, the former mystic was thinking: Yes, man is stronger, greater than God. When Adam and Eve decived You, You chased them from paradise. When You were displeased by Noah’s generation, You brought down the Flood. When Sodom lost Your favor, You caused the heavens to rain down fire and damnation. But look at these men whom You have betrayed, allowing them to be tortured, slaughtered, gassed, and burned, what do they do? They pray before You! They praise Your name!”
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The greatness of God is not that he prevents evil, but that he redeems evil. In order to redeem evil, he has to let it be evil.
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Remember this: Anything man intends for evil, God can turn around for good. I serve an awesome God who is capable of anything.
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[…] Jews and Christians cannot be serious when they affirm leaders are chosen by God. If so, I become atheist […]
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Meng Teck // July 16, 2006 at 11:47 pm
God gave man, made in His image, authority over all the earth. And we are supposedly His stewards until the end of days. Every child brought into the world is not evil. We have ourselves to blame for all the consequences of our own (self-initiated) actions. Surely, God won’t announce to the terrorist to start bombing, will He?
I’d rather say: God’s purpose or satan’s schemes?
First off, I hope someone dealt with this already. If so, it’s good to toss around again, and if not, then the doctrinal truths of Scripture need to be delved into more deeply.
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“The Lord has made everything for His own purposes; even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4
I believe that we get too caught up in the natural, the physical, and the temporary. God has already worked all things and ordained all things in the eternal realm for His eternal purposes. All leaders, good and evil, lead to the fulfilling of prophecy, God’s ultimate purpose, the coming back of His Son to reign as King of kings. In order to get there, all kinds of things which don’t make sense to us must happen. When something too huge for my mind to grasp overwhelms me, such as how Hitler could possibly fit into this, I simply trust God’s sovereignty and remind myself that my natural mind can only see in part right now, but one day I will see completely. I purposely refocus on simple truths like salvation and love and child-like faith which doesn’t get too concerned over the details but amazed in Him alone.
Don’t get me wrong, my personality is very detailed and I love to research and drive my Heavenly Father crazy with questions, but I have learned to quiet myself in the midst of too much mind noise and just do as John did, press my ear against His heart where all the questions vanish and they really don’t even matter anymore.
Hope this helps. Blessings.
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The New Testament was written in Greek. Greek is the language of the Romans. The Old Testament is written in Hebrew. Hebrew is the Language of the Jewish people. Now I would like some of you to think for a minute.
Ask yourself a question here. If the disciples wrote the New Testament wouldn’t they have written it in Hebrew?
Now this is going to be a big revelation for you. And I am going to let you find the truth for yourselves. Look up the meaning of the name Jesus. Jesus is the combination of two Greek words, Je – Sus. Look up the meaning of Sus. It is a derogatory word. It is an insult to the Jewish people. It also has a secondary meaning and it is an insult to his Mother. The Romans were far more evil than you can imagine. Don’t take my word for it. Do your own research. Look in more than one place.
The Romans have deceived you. Your not alone either. Millions have been deceived.
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I went to the Google translator and worked you “Sus” every which way and couldn’t come up with anything as suggestive as you imply.
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Hello, 5 Webster. Welcome.
It’s all very interesting, is it not. While I definitely am praying for Barack Obama, I cannot support many of his stances; in particular his approval of abortion, even infanticide, and his long and well-documented friendships with extremists–racists and terrorists.
I continue to be shocked that he sat for 20 years in Jeremiah’s Wright’s church–a vile, racist man.
We absolutely must continue to pray.
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Hi! Interesting discussion!
I believe God does set up leaders. In a democracy, leaders rise via popular choice. There is an old proverb that says “The voice of the people is the voice of God” or “Vox populi”. It may be true to some extent, however, it is also true that the majority is not always right.
When Israel continued to rebel against God, the Bible says He set up a nation that will take Israel away in exile. He setup Nebuchadnezzar who took them captive, and despite warnings by the prophets of Israel’s continued rebellion, they didn’t listen and therefore were overcome and taken into captivity. Because of this, Nebuchadnezzar was blessed to have Daniel, who introduced God to the great king. Nebuchadnezzar eventually recognized God’s sovereign power in the final years of his life.
We elected Bush and Clinton into power, who many would say “disgraced” America with the choices they made. Like us, they made those choices on their own free will and as a consequence, they are no longer in power. I believe the Lord gives us a chance to repent and set our wrongs right, just like the children of Israel, but when we don’t listen, and continue in rebellion, God has to put a stop to it for our own good.
Last Nov. 4, the country made its choice. Despite all the negative associations, unproven track record, the lack of back bone as he often flip-flops on certain issues, he still got elected. Now one can argue “vox populi”, but then again, just like the children of Israel who demanded for a king when God was their king, Saul turned out to be an evil king in the end. God allowed the children of Israel to make that choice, and He allowed them to live with the consequences of their choice. For the sake of the country, I hope the people made the right choice… it has yet to be seen.
I believe that regardless of how we perceive “God’s will” in the rise and fall of kings or powers which may seem good or evil, it is reassuring to know that He is ultimately in control and that “all things work for good to them that love the Lord”. In my opinion, the success of our president elect will only come about if he humbles himself and acknowledges that God was the one who put him there. Just like Solomon who asked for wisdom instead of riches, I hope our president elect asks for the same thing.
In the end, we as a people need to stand behind our choice, and the best thing we can do is to pray for our leaders that they make the right choices for the good of everyone!
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Thank you Eric for your post. It certainly is a timely subject today. While I have no doubt of God’s overarching control of the world and its people, I find it difficult to perceive God’s will as actually being done in every move throughout the world.
I acknowledge my ignorance here, and lack of scriptural foundation. It appears to me that although God is definitely in ultimate control–I have no question of that–it seems that during this dispensation, He is letting people “rule” themselves. As far as government, I am speaking.
Anyway, while I may never sort all this out, I do understand scripture that tells me how to be saved, and how important that is.
We must all pray and “search out our own salvation…with fear and trembling.”
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In Daniel Chapter 4, King Nebuchadnezzar has a dream. Daniel interperets the dream to mean that Nebuchadnezzar would be “removed” from his kingdom by God. Sure enough, as Nebuchadnezzar begins to boast by saying “Look at the kingdom that I have made…” God removes him from his position and he lives with the beasts in the field for 7 years. If that doesn’t show you God’s direct control over a leader, then I don’t know what will.
“And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:”
That verse is pretty cut and dry. I don’t see how anyone can believe that God doesn’t have control over his creation, when the bible shows us that he does. Some decisions might not make sense to us, but they are his to be had.
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Good morning, Nino. Thank you for considering and commenting on this difficult question.
Of one thing we can be sure: God reigns, and one day His people will be forever with Him. Hasten the day!
Shirley
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I am debating these passages: Titus 3:1 (Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient,) RSV
and Roman 13:1 (Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.)RSV
I have read the response to this subject and for me it resulted in complicating more the issue.
Hitler, Stalin, Cesar, Ministers of God?
Should we obey the authority all the time?
Or is a Higher Authority He is Referring to; the one of the Holly Spirit?
Then me must conclude that by disobedience of the British Government Authority we have the United States Today.
And by disobedience of the Catholic Church Authority, we have the Reformed Church today.
So We can se tremendous Blessing from disobedience to the word of God?
or Maybe Paul Never intended to discuss civil Govern, instead He was outlining Church Authority,(ministers of God).
and then made a comparison to how we also should obey to civil government, and should pay taxes, with out elevating Civil Governing individual to the status of God’s Minister.
I Love Jesus, and I Love You.
Nino
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Hello JK’sgirl, and welcome to my blog.
You are right on. The place to eternally watch is Israel. Just a couple of hours ago, with a neighbor, Jerry and I were discussing this same subject. It’s interesting to consider how the United States will be against Israel, for in the end, all nations will be gathered against that tiny, unique piece of land.
blessings
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The lack of reference to the USA in scripture suggests that at that time we might not be in any shape to help anybody. Plus, the rapture might have already taken place. The wars that take place will have at least two sides. Jesus doesn’t appear to defeat them until the very end. So, is Israel all alone when they take on the anti-Christ?
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God is in control and allows things to happen. Prophecy is being fulfilled. You may talk about Clinton and his shaming of America but perhaps God allowed Clinton in office for the actions he would take regarding Israel. Because thats what all of history is climaxing towards, the return of Jesus and the state of Israel. Hitler ? Satan hates the Jews and has sought to wipe them out since he knows the Messiah came from them and will be coming back to place His foot on the mount of Olives. Satan wants to make God out to be a liar, so he must destroy the Jews. God has made promises to the Jews, Satan wants to keep those promises from being fulfilled. But it will not work. God wins. Keep watching Israel. Why would this littel speck of land cause the whole world to tremble and be fought over ? Because God said so in His Word….
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Hello, Sean. Welcome to my site and thanks for your thoughtful post on this difficult subject.
There are many things we cannot change, nor fully understand, but through our own power we can strive for upright and righteous leaders. Apathy is rampant among us, and must be fought vigorously. Thank you for being here.
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Well, I think that MJ and AP may have somewhat differing perspectives of Evil, Good and what the Bible says about each. Man is flesh and gives birth to flesh. The Spirit is Spirit and gives birth to Spirit. Man can allow evil to flourish as in many part of the world throughout history, or it (man) can confront evil for the greater benefit (good) of mankind. When confronted with suspected evil, then we as Christian men and women need to seek God and look to His Word – the Bible – for revelation and guidance. Mistakes are part of the flesh, not the Spirit.
Ignorance and apathy are very synonomous with great evil over history. But God does allow Evil to exist in the same way that He allows our flesh to exist. One day we will have our flesh put off and “will be like the angels in heaven…” “…neither married or given in marriage”…We do have a right and a responsibility as Christians (not just for American Christians) to obey and to vote and to live Spirit-filled lives. Being a Christian does not mean following the masses or obeying god-less authority (read Wurmbrand and Bonhoffer in our 20th century). However, Bush and Clinton were not god-less, made mistakes and will have to live with them. So do we, but we have the right to also amend the constitution as needed.
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Leave God out of this. God granted us the free will to do good and screw up. There is evl in the world because we put it here.
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LDS scriptures say The Lord established the Constitution of the United States and appointed “wise men whom [God] raised up” just for that purpose
D&C 101: 77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.
But some leaders are not chosen by God, e.g., Hitler-Stalin et al.
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Daniel, you have a fine attitude–a quality that will take you far.
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ok thanks bezu u can stop by anytime at my blog http://dantheman123ya.wordpress.com
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Bezu–and everyone else. God blessed most of us with fine minds and a thirst for understanding. It’s helpful to lay out our thoughts, have others agree with us or challenge us and continue in our search for Truth. Full Truth is found only in Jesus, who said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” That understanding bases and steadies us as we grapple with the deeper things of life.
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Ap
I think it is important to put Romans 13:1 in its proper context to get its full flavor.
“Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
For it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.”
Hmm… whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed… what about the anti-war protestors?
Authority does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.”
Ap: Do you suppose President Bush is a servant of God meant to inflict wrath on the evil doer.
If so, who is the evil doer upon whom the wrath will be inflicted.
Sometimes it’s convenient to take verses out of context in order to “make them fit” a particular point of view.
When we take verses out of context and string them together it’s even worse.
That’s called “truncated concatenation”
Perhaps Paul was somewhat intimidated by the utter brutality of the Roman authorities of his time;and for good reason. He was beaten, chained,spit upon and imprisoned by them many times. perhaps this affected his writing. He says; “do what is good and you will receive approval from authority” -he certainly didn’t!
Whoops… I seem to have opened a whole new can of worms!
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Romans 3:23
For [all] have sinned, and come short of the glory o”f God”
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God Bless little Daniel. Thanks for the heads up Helen!
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so what if i am young and thanks for the compliments everyone
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You think President Bush was set up and Clinton was evil? I find that disturbing. I think if Christ had a vote, he’d be leanin’ to the left.
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Bezu, yes Daniel is a remarkable young man who involves himself in quite adult and serious conversations, and he definitely is a pet of this part of the blogosphere. But, as Helen pointed out, and as you would have no way of knowing, perhaps, Daniel is young–just going into Junior High school.
Thanks to all of you for your responses. I believe we are much in agreement that although God will have the final word, and our dominion and power is only as He gives it to us, we do “set up and take down rulers.” That certainly is cause for us to consider carefully our actions and political decisions.
Thank you, AP for the scriptures.
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I for one believe that we indeed “set up and bring down”, under the authority and permission of God. I have always thought Romans 13:1 covered these questions pretty well, the following are several translations of this scripture simply for clarification.
Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NKJV – Rom 13:1 – Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
NASB – Rom 13:1 – Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV – Rom 13:1 – Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.
Webster – Rom 13:1 – Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. For there is no power but from God: the powers that are, are ordained by God.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info
Young – Rom 13:1 – Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby – Rom 13:1 – Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above [him]. For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info
ASV – Rom 13:1 – Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the [powers] that be are ordained of God.
American Standard Version 1901 Info
HNV – Rom 13:1 – Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info
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In my personal opinion I think that God doesn’t arrange leaders. When God cast down the fallen angels he left satan in charge of the world and he gave man a free will. So it is probably satan that uses men (not of God) to put in position who he thinks will best fit his plans. That is not saying that God doesn’t use those people to change things for the good. It is a confusing concept. I suppose it is beyond my comprehension to think that God would “appoint” someone like Hitler.
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Bezu,
Daniel just finished the sixth grade, and yet he participates in conversations with adults. We love him and welcome him to make comments our blogs. Right, Shirley?
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Hmmm….Daniel gives new meaning to the word “abridged”. I believe it goes something like this:
Q:Does God Set Up World Leaders–Both Good and Evil?
Dan’s answer: probably does but who knows
Reminds me of a joke:
Question:
Which is worse, ignorance or apathy?
Answer:
“I don’t know and don’t care.”
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probably does but who knows
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I think Bezu expressed what I also believe. God did not chose Hitler, Clinton or Bush; the American voters chose the last two (well, sort of: Forget not the chad deal). God can be in control and allow human choice simultaneously, just as Jesus was fully God and fully human. I think we are “setting up and bringing down” under the permission of God.
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I just finished talking to God. He told me that, although he maintains his “veto” powers, he’s leaving the final disposition of the planet up to us humans. He said that if circumstances reach a point where we have completely messed things up, he wiil step in to resume his C.E.O. responsibilities.
He told me to remind everyone that he has already given us this earth,given us strong bodies and capable minds with intellects that can use reason and logic to work out problems. Knowing that reason and logic were not the only things we needed to be successful stewards of this world, he also gave us prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude. Being omniscient as he is, he also knew we needed more than this so he equipped us with faith, hope, and love. He’s a little bit miffed that we humans so often forget that he has alraedy given us reason, logic, prudence, temperance, fortitude,justice, faith, hope and love and he wonders why we keep defering the day to day operation of our affairs to him. He said that even though he is all powerful, he lets us run things down here. He called it a paradox;even though he’s in control, he does not control things…kinda like when he told Paul that “power is perfected in weakness”
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God gave man, made in His image, authority over all the earth. And we are supposedly His stewards until the end of days. Every child brought into the world is not evil. We have ourselves to blame for all the consequences of our own (self-initiated) actions. Surely, God won’t announce to the terrorist to start bombing, will He?
I’d rather say: God’s purpose or satan’s schemes?
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I would think that nothing takes place without God’s permission. But having said that, men and women also have the choice to make good and moral decisions, or evil and immoral choices.
God is not responsible for the choices that we or others make, because we have the ability to choose. With that ability comes the responsibility of dealing with the consequences that we make.
Both President Clinton and Bush had their own choices, and they did what they did. We cannot judge them for what they did, for that would presume that we know the inner workings of their hearts; that would mean that we are telling God, “Let me do the judging, since I think you’re not doing a good job.”
But we can judge their actions….
Let us also not forget that both of them were elected by the people of America who too had their own choices to make. The Americans chose them to be President, and with that choice comes the responsibility of living with the consequences of that choice.
Of course no American would have expected any President to bring shame to the country. But to pin the blame on God when there is someone else more immediate is merely passing the buck.
Alternatively, one can look at it this way. If we blame God for all the bad things that happen, do we give him due credit for all the good things that happen as well? And if we do recognise that God is in charge of all the good and bad things that happen, then we recognise that he does so because of his far superior knowledge and morality. So why question his choices?
Of course this doesn’t work as well too, because it reduces humans to mere robots with no choice as well, which is not what God created us to be. This too is a form of passing the buck, because it negates our ability to make choices… which ultimately is the ability to choose good from evil, love from hatred.
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